You're replying to a comment by Jared T.

Jared T Permalink
August 22, 2018, 00:05

If the anti-framework people win, and nobody used them, or it was more on the rare side of things, can someone explain to me what the world would look like?

Instead of Ruby on Rails, we'd have a ton of applications built on Ruby on Nope?

Instead of ASP.NET MVC, we'd have "Just get me a .NET socket and I'll make my own custom ASP.NET Core MVC that's better than what Microsoft created, because I am a 'real programmer' who doesn't need a framework"? "This way, I won't have to upgrade MVC 3 to 4 to 5! Ha!" (Note: I do agree with article author on avoiding unnecessary upgrades.) "SignalR for real time client-server communication with multiple communication techniques and built-in fallbacks for older browsers? Screw you Microsoft, I can roll my own and do a better job, and I can replicate the tens of thousands of hours you put into this, make better quality documentation for my successive maintainers AND still come out as more productive in the long run." (I hope you can see how lost I am by this article's generalization. If you're going to tell me ASP.NET and/or SignalR are libraries, (or platforms,) not frameworks, tell me specifically what a framework is (bullet points) that makes it such a bad idea, and we can debate those bullet points rather than these vague terms.)

Instead of WordPress and Woocommerce and membership plugins, people would start blogs by doing 'vi index.html', and hire a 'real programmer' to get them a bug-free battle tested shopping cart and content delivery system? But since we are all pro library, can you cobble together a equivalent to a feature-rich ecommerce and membership Wordpress site with commenting using only libraries? Which libraries? Give examples (for WordPress or otherwise). Javascript's ecosystem has gone to the extreme of using libraries for tiny utility functions but that seems to have created its own brand of hell.

Would 'people who don't really know how to program' be out of jobs, leaving way more work for the 'real programmers'? Would there be too few real programmers in the world?

So which is it? 1) Avoid frameworks, roll your own, 2) DRY, use libraries as much as possible, 3) Adopt batteries-included frameworks. 4) Some sort of level-headed 'best tools for the job' objective reasoning on a project by project basis that is a balance of 1-3? (I like #4.) I think the answer is to not generalize, not flip out due to some bad experiences with some poorly maintained overly complex frameworks. If the industry leans to a bias of overuse of one style, then sure, point it out, but in favor of objectivity, not reactivity.

(Now, I like think the world could have done better than WordPress, (which is a CMS first, a plugin SDK second, and only very distantly an application development framework if you really want to stretch it to be one, and also a programming environment I basically avoid at all costs), if we designed better families of libraries that provided framework-like features without being monolithic. But I can't prove that. We do have inverted (though closed source) things like Gravatar for avatars and Disqus for comments and I would have liked to see things like WordPress grow in more of an dependency fashion like that, but in this and other landscapes, it may require some more standardization.)

This is a broad topic so surely I'm missing your perspective -- fill in your own examples of 'the world would be a better place if X Y and Z products used no framework instead of ___ framework', from any domain of software development.

Convince me using a story or many stories that your project was more successful because it didn't use a framework. Browserling is (allegedly) one example -- okay, I'm not sure how typical of a project that is, but if there's something to this article and train of thought, there should be hundreds and thousands of examples.

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